What People Say About You When You Leave The Room

Jeffrey Madoff: This is Jeffrey Madoff and welcome to our podcast called Anything and Everything with my partner, Dan Sullivan.
 
Dan Sullivan: We were just talking because you're now in the preparation stage for some great musical presentations of the music of Lloyd Price in London and looking at venues and you've got offers and you know the talent, you already know what the talent is available for it. And we were just talking about when you go into any situation in business, period, that who you are as an individual and how you deal with other people either establishes a good reputation or a bad reputation.
 
And so the more you are agreeable and, you know, are adjustable and you can respond really well to situations, establishes a reputation, And that reputation isn't just about the particular project that you're working on, because the word goes out that these people are really easy to deal with. And I think easy to deal with is probably a really good reputation, Jeff. I mean, you've got standards, but you're easy to deal with.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. He's so easy to deal with, he has no opinions.
 
Dan Sullivan: So it's very easy to deal with. I think you're easy to deal with and you have standards.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yes. And, you know, it's interesting because in the world that you and I often frequent, there's a lot of talk about, you know, how you build a personal brand, which I think is bullshit. You know, your brand is your reputation.
 
Dan Sullivan: Exactly.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: It's what they say about you when you leave the room. And reputation is way more important than brand. And so I think that you're right. If someone's reputation is that they're good to deal with, that there's respect, that you get paid what they tell you you're going to get paid. And you do get paid.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yes, yes.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, and so it's interesting because I've been in a number of situations where people put up with frankly unpleasant personalities because they think they have to. Because they think, well, but they've got such a, you know, big profile out there. I need to put up with that. And it's funny because I've dealt with people who were supposedly horrible who I got along with great, but possibly the unique twist was that I told them what the day was going to be. Here's what the shoot is. Here's what we're doing. Here's what you're doing. Because so many times people are just left afloat.
 
And many people, and especially people who are established, like to know, all right, what are we dealing with? What's the parameters here? What's happening? A big part of my job not just in theater and when I'm working with talent and work with models and I'm working with actors, it's making them feel safe and comfortable so they know what's going on. And if you don't do that, then there's a good chance that talent is going to act out in a way because you're making them feel insecure. And they don't have confidence in you and your ability to carry through on the promise of what you're doing. Do you see that in the entrepreneurial world?
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I'm doing one of my quarterly books right now with Shannon Waller and with Hamish McDonald. And if there's a passion that I have that shows up every day, it's that when I've got great people, there's two things that I hate. And one is wasting their time and wasting their talent. I mean, I feel this viscerally. You know, I've got access to really, really great people. And from my standpoint, I want to set up things so that they don't feel that their time is wasted and their talent isn't wasted. And I think we're talking more or less about the same thing here.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. And it's interesting. How would you define talent?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, I think it's the great thing that they find easiest to do. In other words, if you set them up properly, this is really easy for them. They don't have to angst over this. They put in their time, they put in their repetitions, they rehearse and everything else. But they have something that they find, one, that it's really easy for them to do, but it's also the most energizing thing they do. And it's what other people think is great. That's what I think talent is.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And, you know, in doing research, and that's a good answer, in doing research, one of the definitions that came up, which I thought was really great, and this is actually someone that is going to be in our book, and he said, talent is the right person in the right context. And I thought, wow, that is putting it simply and succinctly. Because when you think about it, that's really true. I mean, if you took a great composer and then you put him into an accounting office to do tax accounting, they're not going to come across very well, right?
 
Dan Sullivan: They're going to be a bad accountant.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. That's right. Mediocre at best. But then again, if you take that great tax accountant and you give them an orchestra, they're gonna know what to do with them. So, you know, I think context, which is so often overlooked, is so important. So I really love that.
 
Dan Sullivan: It goes back to your Stanislavski thing, you know, that the crucial thing is that you are using your best abilities and you're with a complete understanding of the context in which you're asked to perform. You're comprehending exactly what it is that you're supposed to do in this situation, in these circumstances.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Right, the given circumstances.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, given circumstances.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Which I think is such a great tool.
 
Dan Sullivan: And my feeling is the talent to recognize that is in short supply.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, well, it's really interesting because I think that comes down to almost, for the talent, it comes down to something that's, I've seen a few fascinating things. I'll give you an example. Because sometimes people don't know what their talent is. Or they don't know how to present it in the best light. We were auditioning and there was this woman that was doing her singing audition for Shelton Becton, our musical director, who's phenomenal. And she just wasn't getting it.
 
But there was a quality there that was very appealing and very good. And Shelton said, so what key do you think you're singing in? And what's your best key? And I forget what she said, but let's just say that she's a mezzo-soprano and she was doing whatever. And he goes, play, I want you to go down an octave. And he hit a note for her. He said, this is your starting note. And now try doing a song. It was revelatory.
 
Dan Sullivan: Piece of my heart. Yeah. Piece of my heart, yeah. Because she was starting off at the top.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. That's right. She should build to the top. That's right. But she thought her starting point was not here, but here. And so getting there was …
 
Dan Sullivan: She had nowhere to go.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. And so that was really interesting because after that audition, you know, she said, I never realized that because, you know, would say that. And then she goes in for the audition. They play the piano and the key that she thinks she is. And that was it. And I said to Shelton, how did you know that? I mean, you just gave her such powerful knowledge that she didn't have about herself. And he goes, I've been doing this a long time.
 
Dan Sullivan: It's so funny because our world doesn't really have many auditions, but the past week we had three auditions for new coaches. And it was one on Tuesday and two on Wednesday. And they all did great, but you could see, and what we have is a 15-person team member workshop. So each of them takes the role of a difficult, demanding client. It's the worst workshop that anybody is ever going to coach. And they have to come in, there's three things they have to pass on, is they have to, when they walk in the room, they connect with the room like they connect with the people who are in the room.
 
And the second thing is that they're given two of our thinking tools, and they really have to know the thinking tools. They have to explain the thinking tools to the auditioning workshop. And the third thing is, how do they handle zingers when they're asked something that's not part of the preparation? How do they respond to that? Okay. And two of them passed with flying colors on all three, but one of them had a little bit of difficulty with just connecting with the room. And so it doesn't mean that they're out because we're going to need more coaches in the future, but certain coaches are going to start right away.
 
On Monday, tomorrow, two of them will be given dates for their first workshop, the third one won't. Because we said, we'll probably want to look at this again in the future. It's not a no, but it's not yet. It's not yet. And these are clients who are entrepreneurs who, over the years, one, we've seen that they have coaching capabilities from performances that they've done. And number two, they've voiced an interest in it. And it takes a long time. It's five or six years before we get to the point where you even have the discussion that we would like you to consider, you would like to consider being a thing.
 
But it was interesting because generally that audition isn't really part of Strategic Coach life, but it is for the coaches. And the one actually is a trial lawyer. One of them that passed, he's a trial lawyer. That's his business. And he loved it. He just loved, you know, he's a trial lawyer. He says, you know, getting thrown zingers, he says, that's what trial law is all about. You know, the, I mean, people's future time is at stake here. That may be someplace where they don't want to be, or …
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, one room with iron bars.
 
Dan Sullivan: Or, you know, a heavy payment or something that they have to do, yeah. But it's why theater is such an amazing environment, because you just have to be present. You just have to be totally present to win. I think that's true.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And I think why I like that idea of the context so much in terms of the … is that part of being present is, of course, being aware. And, you know, some people will come in and ask questions just to try to stand out. And they've been told, you know, it's one thing to ask questions where you realize it's kind of a script. It's not. They've heard that, you know, when you walk into an audition, be prepared to ask them questions. And you can tell that it's kind of hollow. Where others, when there's that presence, they may do a read and they may say something else that makes you want to hear them. So try it that way.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And that can be a really cool surprise. But I think one of the things that happens in business for sure, and it does happen in theater, of course, too, but I think so often we systematically confuse confidence with competence. And just because somebody is confident doesn't mean they're competent. Just because they have confidence doesn't mean they're competent. And that can be a real fooler because sometimes what we call, you know, what is considered to be good hiring is actually the person is just a good self-promoter. And so in theater, there are people that audition really well, but can't deliver the goods. Just like there's people in jobs that interview really well, but when it comes down to actual performance, they don't have it, you know? So I guess you could say they have a certain talent.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, well, the interesting comment that you made about Sheldon, you know, you asked him the question, well, how did you know that, you know, about the singer? And he said, well, you know, I've done this a lot, but you just went to see a one-man show with Chris Voss a couple of weeks ago, you know, and he's a FBI hostage negotiator. And the question often comes up in classes that he gives. The question is, you know, when people are put into that situation, do people rise to the occasion? And he says, my experience is that nobody rises to the occasion. They default to their previous level of preparation.
 
In other words, if you've done this 50 times before, you have prepared in ways that you don't even comprehend until it's called for, until a particular situation is called for. You know, he'll remember some situation where he's done this before, that the person is just starting too high. They're just starting way too high. And that if you can get them to start lower, they'll perform much better. Well, he stored that away in his brain somewhere. Maybe he hasn't used this 50 times, but he remembers it two or three times when it worked.
 
But that's why, you know, always preparing is really a useful activity. You know, what if this happens? Well, I'll think it through this way if I think it this way. And then our brain just stores away an enormous amount of successful and unsuccessful experience. And they're equal to each other, successful and unsuccessful, but he's creating them the spot. I mean, he was creating a new approach with a new person in a new situation. What I found really interesting was that …
 
Jeffrey Madoff: It's probably one of the reasons why he's not an accountant. That's when I like to phrase, well, you know, it just doesn't add up. Which is rarely, rarely goes to the accounting world, but it should, it should. But what I found fascinating is that that very talented woman is a professional singer and singer-actor. And she didn't know what her starting point should be. And it made me also think about, wow, how many auditions has she had, that she wasn't able to shine at her best because she didn't know her starting point?
 
And I thought, wow, that's really interesting. She didn't know that. And she thanked Shelton at the end of that audition, because she said, I never knew that. I always thought I was, you know, the mezzo soprano or whatever. I never knew. And, you know, so you identify and then you go to the next audition because the first audition you had defined you that way, possibly wrongly, but that's becomes who you are in the auditions until somebody else corrects in a way that finally the light goes on, it actually works.
 
Dan Sullivan: There's nothing more dangerous than winning with the wrong approach. I mean, you're more exploratory from not winning the audition, because you go back and you say, maybe there's something I'm not doing right, but if you win with the wrong approach, you know, it can get locked in. And she's going to have many more auditions in her future, you know, I mean, her career is, I mean, she's going to spend more time, she's going to spend as much time auditioning probably as she is performing unless she, you know, she gets a reputation.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: So I love the phrase winning with the wrong approach. Now, it makes me think of, to give a really simple example, you know, somebody is auditioning and let's just say the play is set in the 1960s. So, you know, they go to a thrift shop to buy a floral shirt and they, you know, whatever put there. They think that, you know, having that look is going to help them. And let's say they get the part. It had probably had nothing to do with what they were wearing, they just happened to be the right choice at that time for that part.
 
Yet they think every audition going forward, they've got to put together an outfit, you know, because it worked that time. And so, yeah, that's why I wasn't getting auditions before. Now I tried that. That's what worked. And they sort of walk into a different kind of obsession, which is, now I got to find the right clothes for this, or whatever. But how do you mean that? Because I love that phrase. How do you look at that winning with the wrong approach?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, it wouldn't be so much about the performer. It would be about the person choosing the performer. For example, if Shelton said to the person, I think there's something not working, but we really want her. So I'm going to go ahead and we're going to, you know, it could happen two ways that she had the greater voice and he had some misgivings, but he didn't voice the misgivings or come up with a solution on the spot. And she might have been dismissed. And he'd remember saying, you know, I should have told her that she should start lower, okay? And then the talent, you know, the talent is gone.
 
Or he could have said, I really, really want her, but even when she becomes part of the cast and she becomes part of the performance, it's not pointed out to her with that particular song. And that's a song where, I mean, you can't do, it's a long song. First of all, it's a very long song. It's not a two-minute song. It goes on for a while. And she always, you know, is out there. It wouldn't do as good a job for the performance and her character in the play, you know. Because it's an interesting song, because it's someone who actually existed, you know, you're depicting an actual performer from the 1950s.
 
And everybody has a memory of the song, and it's a great song, but it wouldn't do exactly what you want for the overall quality of the play. And the other thing is she's depicting an actual singer from the 1950s, okay? And it's acting within acting because you're acting within the play, but you're acting as a historical character in the play, you know? And the other acting is that she's 19 years old and she's coming across as a 40-year-old.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, and the other thing is, is that you're talking about Alexandra, right?
 
Dan Sullivan: Actually, no.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Okay. But that was the example you gave about that note. That was her actually. But the thing that's interesting is that it also with Shelton—this is an interesting sidebar. It wasn't just about that song, because they're also part of the ensemble. She's got a balance with the right number of altos and basses and whatever to fill up that sound. And his sense was that, and again, this wasn't Alexandra, the sense was that this is, you're actually this, not that, because he knows he can use that, not only for the featured song, but for the ensemble singing. So, because he knows how many of each vocal range.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. He's got a bigger picture of what's needed than the performer does.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right. That's right. So have you ever gotten feedback from a time on stage or in a meeting or whatever, any kind of feedback that gave you a realization that you didn't have before about what you were doing?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, and I mean, it's a long time one. I was much more a performer at the beginning of my coaching career, you know. And for a coaching career, I'll take it back to the beginning when we had workshops, where I had an audience in the room that was a paying audience. I mean, I've given lots of speeches at conferences and where you were marketing, you know, everything else. One is I've become much more conversational rather than performative. You know, I'll come out and I said, you know, I've got an idea for you. I want you to explore it today. And I've got some questions for you that I'd like you to start off.
 
So I tend to start off at a very, very conversational way. Because my job is to ask a question very early where people can write things down. And it'll be a series of questions where they explore certain experiences they've already had as entrepreneurs, but they haven't put them together in such a way that they say, hey, this is connected to this and this is connected to this. And the progression for me is the quicker I can get where they're doing all the talking in the room and I'm not doing any of the talking, I've won. Because if I can get everybody talking to everybody else, they bought into the process, they bought into the experience, and it's working for them. I can tell by the quality of what they're saying, it's working.
 
So my job is how quickly can we get from my contribution to their contribution. And, you know, I've done 2,800 workshops, so I'm starting to get a feel for it. It's good. But there isn't, well, I should say this, and I had the past week as an example. There's not one when I get to the end of it, I said, you know, I could have done this better. I could have done this better. This could have been handled better. The timing wasn't right here and everything like that. I've never had a workshop where afterwards I didn't have some new material to work on in terms of how it would have worked better.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Do you also allow yourself to feel good, give yourself a pat on the back when it goes particularly well?
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, I treat myself right.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I think that's critical.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think I do too.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And I think that's critical. I think that one of the main things that I learned is when I was a lot younger, it was probably more important for me, even though I couldn't have articulated it at that time, to convey what I thought I knew, where it's much more effective to listen. And I think this is another kind of thing, and I wouldn't even call it a strategy, it's just the way we are, that asking the right questions and getting the other people engaged in talking not only takes the onus off of you to keep it going the whole time, you learn how to keep it going by engaging the other people in the room. And so, talking less and listening more, I think is a good thing.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, yeah. And I would say if I look at all of our coaches, because we have coaches who have been coaches for, we have two of them that are 30 years as coaches in June and July. So they've been coaching for 30 years for us. And I would say that their experience would attest to just what you totally say, that at the beginning it was what they had to say, and now it's more just what's being said in the room that I can respond to, you know, and sort of knit it together.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And, you know, it's interesting when you talked about, well, what can I do better and all that. You know, in theater, that's why you have notes after a preview. And of course, rehearsals. But then, you know, the rehearsals are one thing. And then when you have the previews, you're in front of an audience for the first time. So you see if the jokes land, if the songs hit, if all these different things that you can't know until you get it in front of other people. You can think you know, and sometimes your guesses are right, and sometimes they're not.
 
But you get that immediate feedback, like when you are speaking in front of a group, and if you say something funny that you think is funny, and they don't laugh, it wasn't funny. At that moment, it just didn't work. And sometimes, by the way, I think that the audiences do change. In general, I think they're the same, but there are different audiences. You know, it's funny, when they were a tough audience, what does that really mean? What you did didn't work? You didn't assess the room right?
 
Dan Sullivan: I mean … Yeah. I think there's a growing capability. One is if you're really committed to what you're doing and you're observant about the span of experience you've had many, many times, and you're constantly learning from it, I think that makes a big difference. One thing I've noticed about Personality, the play, because I've seen it in three locations and three totally circumstances, New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago, is that you as the playwright and the entire leadership team, as far as the director, the choreographer, the music director, and everything else, that by the time you got to Chicago, you had made the audience part of the performance. In other words, the audience response was much more vigorous in Chicago than it was in New York.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, well, New York was that workshop.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Which before Chicago, Pennsylvania, where actually, you know, we started, it was interesting. We wanted Lloyd, the character Lloyd, when singing “Personality,” which is his big song, to somehow get more interactive with the audience. It happened that there were just a few steps and he could walk off stage and then walk across the front row and engage people and it was great. And we're able to do that in Chicago also. And it's funny, because sometimes a theater doesn't have steps down from the stage to the audience. So you gotta figure something else out, you know? But all of those things and how you engage and what the response is—went to a concert last night, as a matter of fact. Are you familiar with the singer Susanne Vega?
 
Dan Sullivan: No.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: She's fabulous. And she's also a good friend. And, you know, she's been in front of audiences for 40 years. She knows how to get to her audience. And, you know, when you watch, you know, whether a Suzanne, couldn't be less like Liza Minnelli, but Liza Minnelli, I knew when I was working with her, that people said, well, what's it like working with her? And I said, I'm looking at 60 years of showbiz history when I see her. Somebody who knows how to be in front of an audience. Somebody who knows how to engage with an audience. Her fans are phenomenally loyal. And yeah, but so different than what you do.
 
And I said, no, it's someone, I'm learning. Every time you watch somebody with that kind of mastery, if you've turned off to that because it's not your style, you're missing a great opportunity to gain insight and learn something. And I think that's … I think that's so important and oftentimes missed because you get tangled up in other things rather than, again, it goes back to being present, what you're doing. And seeing Suzanne last night, who I've seen many times, she was at Town Hall last night, was just great because, you know, she's just so on top of her game. It's wonderful. Yeah, again, it's the right person in the right place. The talent in the right context.
 
I have a new pet peeve, by the way, to change the topic a bit. I think it's still within the realm of anything and everything. But now with emails, we have Gmail. I think you have Gmail too, right?
 
Dan Sullivan: Yep.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: So before you start, before you respond to the Gmail, it gives you all these, like you're the AI, it gives you all these prompts on how you can answer the email without doing anything other than just clicking. You click that and that's the response. It's not an opt-in. You actually have to opt out to get rid of that. Right? And so, same thing on the phone, where then you're given all these prompts. I think in these ways, it's making us more stupid. Because you can click a response, you don't have to think about it. Yeah, are there routine responses in some things? Yeah, but how long does it take to say no thank you? You can create some of your own no thank yous or not interested or whatever.
 
But I think it's a very insidious intrusion for the AI to gain more knowledge. And in a way, I think of it, I think back to greeting cards, which to me are an early example of AI. Okay, you don't have to think of something clever for happy birthday, get a funny card. Some are funny.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, yeah, no question. I mean, there's a real art to great cards.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Oh, yeah, no question.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, there is. Yeah, my approach to that is that they're going for the lowest common denominator, you know, like, you know, I mean, that's what commoditization really, really means is that, you know, if we can turn everything into a commodity that the lowest performers feel good about it and they pay us, you know, that's okay. But for example, I always, you know, I grew up learning how to write a letter. So you'll notice with my emails, I always start with your name because you always start with your name. And it's like I'm writing a letter and then I, you know, and I always sign off best or something like that.
 
And I get compliments from people, you know, a lot of people just say, got it, you know, they don't, there's nothing, it's just that got it. In other words, you're just indicating that you got the message, but you're not coming back with any message. So my whole point is to not commoditize emails, but to actually, you know—there aren't that many people who write formal letters. They're not formal letters, but they're a proper letter and everything like that. So I just said, you know, well, I learned how to do it this way in the 1950s, and I don't see any reason why I should change 70 years later because of the technology.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: You know, when you talk about writing letters, I would tell my students, if you had an interview, was good and you're interested in a job, handwrite a letter or a card. It doesn't have to be long at all, but it also shows that you were thoughtful and put some effort into it because an email takes nothing. And without fail, the students who did that got responses. And it's just, again, how do you differentiate yourself? You certainly don't do that by automated responses. Another thing, a few people had done this. I would be solicited for people looking for a job with my production company. And then I would see that they CC'd like 50 other companies and they didn't even do a blind CC. I'm seeing all that, I'm thinking, man, you're stupid.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, the kickoff for this podcast was a little conversation about establishing your personal brand, you know? And the way that I approach it, that all of, you know, establishing your reputation in the marketplace is that great people say great things about you to other great people. And I said, once you handle that, everything pretty well takes care of itself.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. I mean, that's my—the corollary to that, which is part of my mantra is you find good people through other good people.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: And have them say good things about you. That's right. Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. I still think informal word of mouth is still the greatest medium of establishing a really solid reputation in the marketplace. Yeah, and part of that depends on who's talking about you.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. You know, is that person talking about you a credible source? Are they someone who has the respect of the people that follow them? And I think you're right. And it's still, even with all of our technology, it's still the greatest conversion to sale is positive word of mouth, people that you refer or refer to. And that's always, that's how we end up watching most of the stuff we watch. Somebody will talk, somebody who we know that our tastes are somewhat aligned, and they'll talk about a series and you should watch that. And I mean, that kind of conversion, which all the data in the world, there'd be a lot more successes if that all worked.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, it's really interesting. We had, you know, marketing comes up quite a bit in our Strategic Coach workshops. And somebody asked our team members, and we had team members in the back of the room who are actually involved in marketing. And the question came up, how much after all these years? I mean, we have a full marketing department. We use social media, we use all the social media, there's stuff going on. And somebody said, what percentage of your signups for the Program still come as a result of personal referral? And it was 80%, 80% still comes in.
 
And they said, well, don't you want to get away from that? And I said, no, I would like it to be 95%. But the thing is, nothing happens just because of one statement that someone makes to another person. There's a reinforcement of many different things. Our books out in the marketplace have a big impact. Our podcasts out in the marketplace have a big impact. I said you're surrounding people with positive, interesting ideas and information. I'd like to know more about that.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, and tying it all back to what we were talking about earlier, because I think you're right, when we talk about casting or hiring, what we're really looking at is, and this is back to the phrase which I love, guesses and bets, and it's about performance versus potential. You're trying to predict whether this person's past performance sufficiently demonstrates the potential that you think they will succeed in that position you're putting them into. Which is not necessarily the case. As we were talking about, they may audition very well, they may interview very well, but they don't deliver.
 
Dan Sullivan: And you might not like them.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right.
 
Dan Sullivan: They might have technically everything that would be required, but there's something about the person you just don't like.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Which is why like the tool that's going to be in our book is what drives you crazy. But I think that's really important. And do you ever see that on a resume? No, you don't.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. And why, you know, we're changing it up a little bit for the book because we don't have time to explain it if somebody has questions. So I tried to get the tool across in such a way that people get the essence of it and they understand that the sample copy makes sense and everything else. But when I started the tool, this is called 4 x 4 Casting Tool, I would tell them, you know, here's how I want you to perform when you're in my presence. This is the kind of results that are increasing results I'd like to see. This is how you can really be a hero. If you want to go way above the ordinary, if you do these four things, you can be a hero to me.
 
And by the way, this is how you can drive me crazy. And I said, now, I just want you to know that what drives me crazy is permanent. And you may think it's unreasonable, but I'm telling you that I'm not seeking counseling for these things that drive me crazy. This is the way it is. And if you cross the line, you're probably gone. And I just want you to know that right up front. I don't want you to find this out by surprise. I'm gonna tell you right up front, don't go here.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, which is useful information. And, you know, because to me, when I was a kid interviewing for jobs, I never felt like I'm just there to answer their questions. I also felt like they were there to answer my questions too, because if they didn't want to answer my questions, it wouldn't be a good fit.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. You're the buyer, but I'm also the buyer.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, exactly. So, I was never careful in a sense, well, I don't want to ruffle their feathers by it. I just always thought, put it out there because I'd rather find out now than, you know, getting fired a few weeks later or me finding them just untenable to work with. Because, you know, the interview audition period is kind of the courtship and I'd rather find out sooner than later that it will or it won't work. So I think that a lot of people don't see those interviews as it's your chance to interview them too, you know, and that can give you additional insight into the person, into the company, or your own company.
 
You know, and I think if people don't have any questions, that's a red flag to them. And you don't have to make them up. I mean, you just have to pay attention because I don't know anybody that has ever explained anything so well that I never had any questions. You're talking about an important decision. And I think that's also part of the preparation. Know who you're talking to. Again, back to what you said, the given circumstances.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, it strikes me that there's been a real change in the marketplace of who's coming, you know, who are young, you know, and we brought on about, I think this year, we brought on about eight new people. We're a hundred and, you know, we're a hundred and ten person. And we've had some movements, people have left and then we're growing. And so we have new people. And I have to tell you all the stereotypes out there about the entitlement attitude among young people and that we haven't seen any of it in the new people that are coming on board. And this has changed over the last two or three years in the marketplace.
 
But part of the reason is that we've built in an educational process into the hiring process, where we have a lot of books, we have a lot of podcasts, and we have a lot of information about the company that, first of all, we go through agencies for the most part, and there's certain profile testing we have the agency do. So I think they're doing a better job of screening just who comes down the road. But there's about a five-step process before you would be hired to come in. But I asked the head person, our head team member who's in charge of the hiring process, and she said, we introduced one question that really made a difference. And the question was, if you join us, what do you think you're entitled to? And if they answer the question, they're gone.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Interesting.
 
Dan Sullivan: Because entitlement has, it's a very powerful word. I mean, there's a lot of stuff related to the word entitlement. And what they say, I don't think I'm entitled to anything. I just look forward to the opportunity to, you know, to work here. I've heard a lot about your company and it would just, I just see it as, I find it very exciting that I could work at your company. I mean, that's what you want.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you want. And if, yeah, it's really interesting because unfortunately so many words have become loaded. And as a result of that, we hear things differently now than we might've heard before. So for example, if you said, if in the interview process, you're talking about vacations, and it's after you've worked here for a year, you're entitled to three weeks off. You're really talking compensation. But now those words aren't as interchangeable as they used to be, because we're loaded. You know, so I think that it's being aware of the language we use when we communicate has become much more of a thing and for worse, because it's so easy to be misinterpreted.
 
Dan Sullivan: So yeah, it's … and of course the whole dynamic of remote jobs now is a big part of it.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, well, you know, there's a place where with a number of the tech companies and financial companies who are probably the first ones that were insisting that people come back more. I'm a big believer in you cannot build a company culture and you cannot build loyalty and lots of things that I would think if you owned a company, because I certainly have, that you want that. And you can't schedule as great as Zoom is or whatever. You can't schedule spontaneity. And people actually being together, I think, is a good thing. Doesn't mean there can't be a hybrid of that.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, ours is hybrid.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: But I think having that opportunity to get to know people face-to-face in all three dimensions, some people are four, I think that that's an important thing. And still, we don't know how this is gonna play out. It's still too early to know.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, it is what it is. I mean, the world changes, you change. I mean, I was born in 1944, and in 80 years, I don't have any of the experience of the world going back. Yeah, I think it hasn't gone back to anything. But you're dealing with trade-offs. We've built in a lot more training since COVID. We have a lot more, you have to come in for a training day, you know, but then there's remote parts of reinforcement to reinforcement and everything else. You know, we're dealing with the cards that were dealt. You know, we're trying to play a good hand with the cards that were dealt and the deals are changing continually. So yeah, good card players don't get the best deals. They just do the best they can with the cards they get, you know, and bluffing along the way.
 
And the other thing is that, you know, I don't know who said this, but I adopted it as a personal philosophy. People do things for their reasons, not yours, you know. And what you're looking for is, these are our reasons, what are your reasons, and do they align with each other? And is it an alignment for a year? Is it an alignment for three? I mean, I'm open to the conversation. I mean, if you're planning to be here for three years, then please give us your best for three years. I mean, if we need your skill and everything else, give us. And it's much more conversational if you treat it like we're going in this direction. Seems to me you're going in this direction for a while. And would it work for us to collaborate and cooperate for that period of time?
 
Jeffrey Madoff: What you're talking about, and this comes down to just day-to-day life, is building a relationship. And the relationship may be a year, it may be two days, it may be forever.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did, Chris Voss, his negotiation, we had everybody in two weeks ago, we had the Toronto and then Chicago's doing it in August and Great Britain's doing it in September. They're doing the training. And he's really got a great coaching program because all of his coaches are people who have been police or, you know, intelligence service hostage negotiators. You know, well, a lot of them are in government services where they get to the end of it, but they have 20 or 30 years’ experience. So he gets them as coaches, you know, he gets them as coaches.
 
I said, I bet there's a lot of hostage negotiators out there who would like to get paid five times what they got paid for, you know, when they were working for the government. But he said, he just asked me the question. So he says, when do you think negotiation is necessary, and I said, you know, life is real simple. You're born, and then the negotiation begins. I said, it's all negotiation. I said, life is negotiation. I said, one thing you gotta get clear about, this world was not designed with you in mind. Any progress you make in life comes from negotiating something.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, and that starts when you're a baby and you're crying because you want milk. You learn a certain behavior, that's a whole other topic. But he has raised studies or some, but yes, I think you're right. So much is a negotiation in multiple simultaneous negotiations going on.
 
Dan Sullivan: Taking Personality to London is a vast negotiation project.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yes. It certainly is.
 
Dan Sullivan: Writing our book for Hay House is a negotiation process.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
Dan Sullivan: Me writing it with you is a negotiation process.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And so far we haven't driven each other crazy.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, we haven't.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah. It's been fun.
 
Dan Sullivan: You know, I want to tell you, I'm really, really thrilled with the research that you're doing on this. I think you're bringing in really, really great, in many cases, scientific studies that would never make their way into a book like this for the entrepreneurial marketplace.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And why do you think they wouldn't? Just because they weren't thought of or what do you think?
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, I think we're really going deep with what actually is the theatrical dimension inside entrepreneurism. You know, what exactly lies at the basis of this, you know, and I think that you've gone deeper than anyone I've ever seen. And not just, you know, having theatrical producers and, you know, casting directors and anything, but people who really, really study, you know, what makes situations special, what makes people feel that they actually have a role and everything like that. So I think that it's an amazing amount of in-depth knowledge that's sitting out there in the world, but it's never been collected and focused.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: I hope that’s true. And that's what I'm striving for, because it's also, frankly, just makes it all more interesting.
 
Dan Sullivan: I'm just trying to make you feel better.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Oh, okay. I was actually …
 
Dan Sullivan: And you have the one from the Argentinian this week on the schedule.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, Tomás. And I've actually made a change, I think a provocative change to chapter one. It's what business knew before business had a clue. I'm sorry, what theater knew before business had a clue.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Because these challenges have been on forever.
 
Dan Sullivan: Oh, yeah. You know, it's not … Well, the evidence of the … I mean, now that we've been focused on the topic for more than a year, about a year, you know, since we started the small book version and everything else, I'm just aware, walking around, the theater is all around us without it announcing itself. It's just that things that are working unusually good have a theatrical explanation.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's true. So, and, you know, I'm learning so much more as it goes along because of these people that I'm interviewing that are generous enough with their time and sharing their knowledge. Because I think, I think these varied perspectives from data-based to relationship building, to all of these things are, I think, enrich the story we're telling. But also, we're going to be giving practical tactics. You know, here's what you can do. So it's not just, you know—there's so often books are about business or platitudes about things. And this is not.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm against, platitudes. I’m against it.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Isn't that that kind of waterborne animal that has a duck bill? But thank you for saying that. I appreciate the support in terms of … because it's like what we're talking about. We're trying to put the best thing possible in front of our audience.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's unique. I just think it's, first of all, I think you're a unique interviewer, you know, and I don't think you've ever had an interview where you didn't have another great question that didn't get asked.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, that's, I always have extra.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you always have that. But I think it deepens, deepens, deepens the book. We have great writing [inaudible] before us, but the convincing part is really, really important. The compelling part, you know, there's all sorts of things you can do for compelling, but the convincing is another thing. That's why I wanted the extra time, because I don't want there to feel a time pressure.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: It's great.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Yeah, it will make it better. Well, thank you. And I think that we have walked around the perimeter of anything and everything once again.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah, it's one thing that I say to entrepreneurs. I said, you know, I've been coaching entrepreneurs since 1974. And what I've noticed is that entrepreneurs do not drive themselves crazy because of their goals. They drive themselves crazy because of their deadlines.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: And my goal is to meet a deadline.
 
Dan Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, but the deadline, there are sensible deadlines and crazy deadlines.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Right. That's right. And, you know, because we are aligned in terms of what we want to accomplish and what we want to do and have the mutual respect of understanding what it takes to do that. It's terrific that Hay House has that flexibility. Because they want the same thing we do.
 
Dan Sullivan: Well, they want the same thing, you know.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: That's right.
 
Dan Sullivan: Good. All right.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Well, thank you, Dan Sullivan.
 
Dan Sullivan: Jeff Madoff.
 
Jeffrey Madoff: Thank you very much. Thanks for joining us today on our show, Anything and Everything. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. For more about me and my work, visit acreativecareer.com and madoffproductions.com. To learn more about Dan and Strategic Coach, visit strategiccoach.com.